- BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.cafeEnglish6 hours
I recently watched a video about the first electronic synthesizer. It was built in 1897, and was housed in the basement of an entire city block in NYC. Several decades later, and it would fit in a suitcase, with far more functionality. It worked, but it was huge and unwieldly, to the point of being completely impractical. It needed to wait until the technology caught up to it, and made it a truly viable instrument, and not just a concept.
Data Centers are like that 1897 synthesizer. It works, sure, but at what cost? It’s expensive in every way, from the building costs, the energy costs, the environmental costs, etc. We have a concept and a prototype, but not a truly viable product yet. Maybe in a decade or two, with a proper goal in mind, we can get there, but right now, Data Centers are just that big, dumb synthesizer that takes up a city block.
- BrickEater@lemmy.worldEnglish5 hours
Ah but that’s where you’re mistaken. The electronic Synthesizer actually had a use. Data centers are a waste the whole way around, and they always will be.
- BrickEater@lemmy.worldEnglish5 hours
Debating a data center IMO is the same as debating a Nazis right to exist. They should’ve been stopped before they could get going and now that its too late to stop them we just gotta kill them instead.
- RagingRobot@lemmy.worldEnglish10 hours
If you are trying to keep something cool why would you put it in Arizona
10 hoursBecause as humans we are insanely stupid. I think we all know the answer. Money is why Arizona. We don’t do what’s right. We do what is cheap and effective. It just happens that sometimes that is right too.
- BlackLaZoR@lemmy.worldEnglish7 hours
I wonder how muchv it raises from you know, ever multi giga watt power plant?
- 6 hours
Suppose it depends how much gas they each fire to keep the slop boiling
- BrickEater@lemmy.worldEnglish5 hours
Sadly we actually need power plants, the Data Centers though are trash.
- cley_faye@lemmy.worldEnglish23 hours
This will help fighting the global colding we’ve had going on… wait, something’s off. Am I reading the charts upside down again?
Once again I am shocked that you always have these big ass heat exchangers on these data centers but no talk of even trying to use some of the waste heat to offset the power use.
- mack@lemmy.sdf.orgEnglish5 hours
my crazy ass idea since 2015:
let’s install mini data centers on residential buildings:
- use excess heat to get hot water for pavement heating in winter and get hot water for domestic usage
- buildings get free high speed fiber
- local edge servers
- employ local people for maintenance
cons:
- management hell, but if small teams get split locally in quarters/towns then I don’t see problems
- BlackLaZoR@lemmy.worldEnglish7 hours
Waste heat is high entropy alredy. You can’t extract any meaningful energy out of it.
Ah yes, famously we have never been able to do anything with heat energy…
- BlackLaZoR@lemmy.worldEnglish7 hours
It’s not my fault you don’t understand physics and think that all heat=free energy. You can’t extract shit without big temperature difference.
Yeah if only you had enough excess heat in one area to increase the local temperature of an already very hot place by 4 degrees.
- Kptkrunch@lemmy.worldEnglish6 hours
If you plug the numbers into the Carnot equation, it looks like the maximum theoretical efficiency of a thermoelectric generator or heat engine operating at that temperature gradient is about 0.75%. And, I could be wrong, but my assumption would be any attempt to reclaim that energy would slow its exchange and potentially bottleneck a cooling system to some extent.
The issue is you are using 4 degrees as the delta of temp, when that is the ambient area temp change. The very localized heat being generated on site (and already nicely conveyed in heat management systems) is going to be a lot more then 4. Also why would you be always using a thermometric generator? They are not know to be efficient.
- Kptkrunch@lemmy.worldEnglish1 hour
Good point about the local temperature delta… I kind of lost sight of that in the discussion. But my understanding of that equation is it would be the maximum theoretical efficiency of any thermal generator as it represents an idealized heat engine.
- BrickEater@lemmy.worldEnglish5 hours
I mean good, we should do everything possible to make these data centers as unnefficient as they are unnecessary.
- BlackLaZoR@lemmy.worldEnglish6 hours
4 degrees Fahrenheit is nothing. For all practical energy production puropses it’s worthless
- Gammelfisch@lemmy.worldEnglish18 hours
Typical waste in the USA. I believe Sweden or Finland pump the heat out for residential use.
- 14 hours
I don’t think the main problem of Phoenix is the lack of heating
- 1 day
They are wasteful on purpose. they could have closed circuit cooling systems where they condense the water from the vapor and reuse it. But they are a giant middle finger to all of us.
- BlackLaZoR@lemmy.worldEnglish7 hours
Nah, evaporation removes multiple times more heat than regular air cooling. It’s because water has high specific heat
- NotANumber@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish1 day
Pretty sure most modern data centers are using closed loop cooling or refrigeration. Not evaporative cooling.
You can’t condense the water either that would defeat the point of evaporating it in the first place. Closed loop liquid cooling does not involve boiling or evaporation. You are just pumping a liquid around a circuit. It’s not just water either it’s more like a car antifreeze.
- KnitWit@lemmy.worldEnglish20 hours
Got any info to back that up? Here’s a screenshot from page 39 of the US Data Center Energy Usage Report, which shows the use of closed loop systems (which they call dry cooling) as one of the smallest percentages of cooling types used. Pretty sure you’ve got it completely backwards on the types of cooling used, and I know for a fact the massive Amazon data center out in Oregon uses evaporative, because you can’t drink the water there as a result.
- Buddahriffic@lemmy.worldEnglish20 hours
The laws of thermodynamics? Can’t create or destroy energy and overall entropy increases over time. A closed loop (or any cooling system) just moves heat away from the hot thing. So yes, they can be used as much as any other cooling system but it won’t stop the issue of “generating lots of heat”. That heat still needs to go somewhere. Dumping it into the atmosphere might be the best option if there’s nothing in the area that needs heat. Should probably build them next to steel plants or something like that. Then a closed loop would be better.
- NotANumber@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish19 hours
I never said it fixed the issue of generating heat. Heat isn’t really a major problem as far as I am concerned. I thought we were talking about water use.
- KnitWit@lemmy.worldEnglish19 hours
? OP was claiming that the majority of data centers use closed loop/refrigeration systems and I was pointing out that US data shows the vast majority use evaporative cooling. They posted a few comments pushing that idea which is why I refuted that. I’m not sure what the point you’re trying to make is in regards to those two statements. I’m not disputing the accuracy of what you’re saying, just unsure of where you’re going with it.
- Buddahriffic@lemmy.worldEnglish19 hours
Thought your request to back it up was in response to the parent comment saying that condensing the water defeats the purpose rather than the first paragraph.
- NotANumber@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish19 hours
Why would they call closed loop liquid cooling “dry cooling”? Unless they explicitly said that then I don’t believe you to be honest.
Evaporative cooling wouldn’t make the water undrinkable unless something has gone very wrong. So I don’t think what you are saying about Oregan is true either.
This is also only representative of the USA, not worldwide. I get that much of the world doesn’t have many datacenters compared to the USA, but you at least have to include China and the EU.
Just a talking point in an investors report. The more I read on these centers the more I am convinced they are not built to work.
- NotANumber@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish1 day
The guy you are replying to doesn’t actually know jack about data centers. Plenty do use closed loop cooling which doesn’t involve evaporating water. It’s only a minority that use evaporative cooling. Power stations are more likely to use evaporative cooling (hence big towers with steam clouds) than datacenters are. They also use far more cooling water than datacenters do. Both pale in comparison to agriculture and other uses.
- Tollana1234567@lemmy.todayEnglish15 hours
its more expensive since you will need to deal with corrosion and heat degrading the equipment overtime.
- WizardofFrobozz@lemmy.caEnglish12 hours
Americans simply don’t give a shit.
No, whiny clown about to reply, I don’t care if you’re “one of the good ones.” You STILL don’t give a shit.
- PlantDadManGuy@lemmy.worldEnglish6 hours
Okay wiz, I’ll bite. While I’m working 60 hours a week, raising awareness online, and attending City council meetings, what else would you like me to fucking do? Mail them a pipe of dynamite?
- WizardofFrobozz@lemmy.caEnglish37 minutes
Everyone has a job. You aren’t special.
Attending city council meetings and raising awareness are things you should be doing in the BEST of times. That’s called participation in democracy. If you think that’s all that’s called for right now in the US, I don’t know what to tell you.
- 11 hours
Hey don’t lump me in with those whiny clowns! I’m a whiny clown in a clown suit. Damn foreigners making extremely generalized assumptions about us /s
- cley_faye@lemmy.worldEnglish23 hours
Some people making datacenter looks into way to recycle the extra heat, some uses it to heat local area (willingly). But all of this costs more than just, dumping it out, I guess.
- kunaltyagi@programming.devEnglish11 hours
If Phoenix has heavy Industries, piped steam is often useful. There’s also central heating (just hot water eg for cooking, bathing, dishwasher etc.), however this requires prior design.
Then there’s a better option to have the chimney higher up so the hot air doesn’t impact downstream.
It’s not rocket science but it’s not free of cost either
Not only that… but Lake Tahoe is being abandoned by their power company to power data centers because its more profitable.
https://fortune.com/2026/05/12/lake-tahoe-data-center-49000-residents-power-source/
- Holytimes@sh.itjust.worksEnglish15 hours
It doesn’t set a precedent at all. It’s always been like this.
Now just more people are being effected by it and in places that people actually give a fuck about. So it’s news now.
Mind throwing out a source? Having some trouble searching for other places that have experienced this kinda thing, with how fucked search has gotten. All I can find are articles about company towns, which don’t feel like what you’re referring to.
Its a travesty, but in that case a little more strange. The blame is not just on the power company but also the local government, the company was bought in 2009 and told the community it would be winding down providing power in the area. The local government got a few extensions but now they have “better” customers they are not going to give them any more. So for many years the area knew it had this issue to deal with but like a lot of americans just sat on their asses and said nothing could be done.
As to why this is allowed, simple, it is a power company existing in a system where profit is the sole factor in anything.
I think part of the issue is they did not really try, it looks like they just assumed things would stay the same. The other part is how would they get another provider? I assume they could get one but for how much more?
- boonhet@sopuli.xyzEnglish1 day
Free market economy. You could technically do similar with nordpool. Set up a ridiculous power consumer and watch everyone’s prices go up.
- kuerbiskernoel@feddit.orgEnglish15 hours
space, noun, outside earth’s atmosphere
I thought this was the meaning of space in space billionaires? Billionaires who pour a lot of money into going to space?
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/space_1?q=space
- Echo Dot@feddit.ukEnglish11 hours
A verb is a doing word, so it is saying to space the billionaires, as in to throw them out in airlock into space. It’s got nothing to do with whether or not the billionaires are active in the space industry or not.
Yes but in figure 1 it’s a noun modifying another noun. Like police car siren. Police and car aren’t adjectives in that example.
- 10 hours
The term you might be looking for is adjunct noun, where a noun modified another noun by acting as an adjective, as-in chicken soup, or cat food.
It’s the secret government weather weapon they were talking about! It is real!
- totoro@slrpnk.netEnglish1 day
“Data centers are inherently an important part of our society, and they’re going to become even more necessary going forward,”
God, fuck this shit
- AstralPath@lemmy.caEnglish1 day
Right?
Like, says who and on what historical basis? People said similar shit about crypto and we all know how that turned out.
- NotANumber@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish1 day
You literally are using a data center or several to post this. How do you think the internet works?
- NotANumber@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish1 day
The majority of datacenters and datacenter power consumption are not for AI. Before AI no one cared about datacenters. Still no one cares about datacenters that already existed and make up the majority of datacenters. I don’t understand it. Is this just manufactured outrage?
- TronBronson@lemmy.worldEnglish10 hours
People hate data centers because they are being forced into our communities without our consent. Consent. Consent.consent
- NotANumber@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish6 hours
Most datacenters are not in urban communities they are in industrial zones.
You also don’t need the consent of other people to build things on land you own. Get out of here with this shit.
- NotANumber@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish23 hours
What do you want me to put together? Why don’t you just come out and say what you mean instead of beating around the bush?
- Fridgeratr@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish1 day
Please don’t be obtuse on purpose. It’s not helpful to anyone
- biggerbogboy@sh.itjust.worksEnglish20 hours
So running a community forum on a decade old laptop, or someone using a hand-me-down phone to watch videos are equal to openAI’s stargate hyperscaler?
We don’t classify a laptop a data centre just because it was repurposed as a web server, and furthermore, devices are so powerful today that you could probably do the same on a smart watch.
Either you don’t know what a data centre is, or are intentionally skewing the definition of “data centre” to fit your snarky reply.
- NotANumber@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish19 hours
YouTube requires enormous amounts of data center hardware. Do you have any idea how much video data they injest, transcode, and distribute in even just an hour or a minute? It’s not very economical to run actually and they had major problems even breaking even.
Most large Lemmy instances run on cloud services nowadays. So they rely on a datacenter somewhere. I am well aware you can self-host - I have done so for multiple things including AI models and tools - but that’s a minority of Lemmy users. Most are using public instances which are hosted on servers in the cloud. In fact if you read the deployment guide for Lemmy it is meant to be deployed using cloud native technology.
You also don’t need a whole Stargate to host one users AI usage. You don’t even need a whole server. Typically AI servers process requests from multiple users simultaneously. The actual marginal cost of each user is relatively small, hence why people can and do run local AI models.
- NotANumber@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish1 day
You literally are using a data center or several to post this. How do you think the internet works?
- Echo Dot@feddit.ukEnglish1 day
Well they don’t believe in global warming but perhaps they’ll believe in local warming.
It’s funny how the last decade or so we were always told to save water and ditch the car, you know, be as environmentally friendly as possible only for big companies to come along and basically do the opposite; again and again.
The world is going to shit and everyone knows it, but money talks I guess… I can’t fucking take it anymore.
Every state has a website like this one: https://sos.oregon.gov/business/Pages/find.aspx
And for the low low price of free, you will know their business address, their mailing address, and the personal address of the most important people in any company you look up.
I do not support doxxing of residents and civilians, but lets be real here. Wealthy corps and wealthy people are in charge. People.
- Karmanopoly@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
Data centers have tons of precious metals like copper and such
Just sayin
- BlindPenguin@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
Those aren’t the same people. More often than not, the people who fuck the environment the most, tend to finance parties that want to end any environmental protection.
- MyVeryRealName@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
It’s your country’s fault for voting for the political party that doesn’t believe in science.
Don’t drag Germany into this…
Actually, do whatever to Germany I don’t really care
- VonReposti@feddit.dkEnglish1 day
Germany seems fine on some level, at least you don’t have a wannabe dictator. What concerns me is that the cold war border is still very visible on political maps.
- Nouvellalia@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
The tech oligarchs sided with the magats because the Democrats said they were going to treat AI like the Manhattan project, for safety. One of the biggest reasons the US election cycle went the way it did was because the Democrats said they weren’t going to allow this.
In America both parties are shit and they have some people that aspire to some kinds of genocide fascist that I don’t support. In my country(Poland) there are more parties, but each one have at least one politician that aspire to genocide.
Even when two sides are bad, one is always worse than the other
- KeenFlame@feddit.nuEnglish1 day
The unceasing demonic entities do not have a soul. It is folly to attribute human emotions such as the survival of the human race to a destruction wraith as if it had any other drive than the gluttonous desperate need for growth we have all assigned and written contracts with them, while pretending we have no individual choice. There are so many alternate governments beside rampant hypercapitalist greed slaughter mode that could give humans some power over the immortal global hatemachines that are burying our race as a game. But what do I know, it is normalized by usa to let engines of hell have lifeblood lawyers lobby and extract any value from all corners of society because of “growth”. I think every human knows the difference in their bones, between prosperity and growth. Yet some humans even has as their jobs to try to trick in any way possible the targets they only want prosperity. When they know its growth, its goal is to grow and consume us entirely. Then when we have been eradicated, I guess they will just wither away not even caring who won any more. It’s disgusting to think about. The lobbying lawyer servants that makes sure they are unstoppable by their masters exponential obliteration march. I think it is vile that you allow these hungering spectres prey on the world under the guise of prosperity. Hypercapitalism is an extremist and occult form of government. You don’t even seem to react to the political jesters dance. Entranced by their games? By the allure of their lies? Bleh. It is easy to mistake prosperity for growth. I understand. But now you know. One is poison.
Who the fuck builds a data center in Phoenix?! Was the surface of the sun not available?
They don’t give a fuck about us. Phoenix likely gave tax breaks, energy deals etc
Seems hard to believe that those would outweigh the like 30 degree average temperature difference of building it some place like Glasgow Montana.
I didn’t think about evaporative cooling for some reason, how much water will that use?
- 2 days
They raised the surrounding temperature in fucking Phoenix Arizona? A place already so hot that it can kill you within hours. we’re so fucked.
