- nosuchanon@lemmy.worldEnglish8 hours
Another step towards the digital EU, where the banks can track all of your movements and the government can deny any purchases they don’t like.
Get fucked.
- Griffus@lemmy.zipEnglish7 hours
This is basically the Scandinavian model. Have never had a transfer blocked in the last decade. Good thing we don’t have US government here in Europe, so we don’t need to adopt the US scepticism of government.
- SabinStargem@lemmy.todayEnglish7 hours
This sort of thing would make crypto like Monero become a necessity. I think the way things are going, especially in the US, we will see crypto become a semi-legitimate currency, simply because governments can’t be trusted to let the poors handle their business in a way that makes sense.
For example, MasterVisa barring transactions involving adult materials, LGBTQ+, and so forth. No choice but to use fiscal instruments that aren’t controlled by the powers above.
- Zetta@mander.xyzEnglish7 hours
Crypto, as scamy as the crypto scene is anonymous payments are what Monero was made for. People should use Monero, fuck ur government spying
- Griffus@lemmy.zipEnglish7 hours
As long as you buy less than 4k NOK each time, no worries. That is the limit where corruption is caught.
- Griffus@lemmy.zipEnglish7 hours
Welcome to Scandinavia, where I have seen cash in the last five years, but only from dealers.
9 hoursInterestingly (or not), we also mostly (or is it totally?) got rid of 500 € bills because they made moving around large amounts of cash too easy.
- 87Six@lemmy.zipEnglish15 hours
As if rich scum haven’t been paying each other with “gifts” that were awfully money-shaped already. This fixes nothing.
I also thought that wwas the case. Apparently it wasn’t throughout the Union.
In the US the cops just steal it. Then in order to get it back, you have to go to court and prove that your money didn’t commit a crime. Yes, really.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States
- 14 hours
Yea i love when most police raids for suspicion of drug dealing end up being something along the lines of “we broke into this person house and he had one half smoked joint and 10,000 dollars in bills” which of course means that the money is now proof of crime and belongs to the cops now
They don’t need to say anything other than that they suspect it was used or going to be used illegally, but yeah they usually cite drugs. Like I said, there’s no court process because they don’t charge you with a crime, they charge the money. So fucked.
- Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.orgEnglish14 hours
Yep, and it’s always done as a civil case so that the cops only have to demonstrate that it’s slightly more likely than not in order to keep the stuff. The costs of defending your property are high enough that it is usually not worth it unless the thing is irreplaceable.
Good. In Italy we have a 5,000 limit and it indeed prevents some illegal payments.
- gian @lemmy.grys.itEnglish18 hours
The limit only make some illegal payments (like under the table payments) only a little more inconvenient, it does not prevent them.
- BlackLaZoR@lemmy.worldEnglish18 hours
Bad, because running all payments through banking system is a systemic safety risk.
If banking gets paralyzed like in Greece during debt crisis you’ll be fucked.
- ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.netEnglish16 hours
It’s not for all payments, just the ones above 10k. It’s right in the title.
- BlackLaZoR@lemmy.worldEnglish11 hours
Whole idea is to cripple cash payments. You’re not doing the economy a favor by crippling the most redundant payment system
- gian @lemmy.grys.itEnglish15 hours
If banking gets paralyzed like in Greece during debt crisis you’ll be fucked.
You’ll be fucked in any case. If the banks are paralyzed you cannot get your money anyway.
- 15 hours
I never met anyone who paid €10,000 in cash. Like, how is someone able to carry all that much? In a suitcase? You’d also be a walking target for robbery if someone knows you are carrying a suitcase with €10,000 in cash. That amount is life changing for most ordinary Europeans. €10,000 is not going to make someone rich, but it’s going towards savings for someone financially wise enough.
Edit: people are talking about it’s possible to carry €10,000 cash by saying they have €100 notes. But I thought they are out circulation precisely because of money laundering and criminal transactions?
- crapwittyname@feddit.ukEnglish3 hours
I think you’re missing the point.Just because you haven’t heard of anyone doing it doesn’t mean that this isn’t still a right that you currently have being taken away.
- ayyy@sh.itjust.worksEnglish8 hours
10,000 is just not what it used to be. For example if you are renting a house where you need a damage deposit and to pre-pay the first and last month’s rent. That easily blows past 10,000 these days for a completely normal transaction. Same for most used vehicles.
- 17 hours
A couple of years ago i sold a car and was paid in cash (12.000 €), its not so much a problem to carry around… i mean, its only 24 500,- € notes or 60 200,- € notes, you surely don’t need a suitcase, an envelope is absolutely enough.
Quite a few years ago I was in ‘job learning’ course from school in a local bank. They needed to move money to another bank across the street and there was some system update or interruption or whatever going on so it had to be done in cash. I don’t remember the exact sum, but it was something like 300k€. The lady who was assigned as my director took money (and counted it, made necessary paperwork and all the jazz) from the vault and put it in her purse in a bag meant for money transfers. It was roughly a book sized stack of bills which we then walked the short distance and the receiving bank made necessary paperwork on their side. I was there only because their insurance required there’s two persons doing the delivery.
Also “a few” years ago I bought a car and the older gentleman who was selling insisted that I pay in cash. 7000€ can easily fit in your wallet.
- Vinstaal0@feddit.nlEnglish11 hours
I have heard of people doing deals in cash and yeah that goes with a suitcase and armed proteciton most of the time lol.
- ohulancutash@feddit.ukEnglish15 hours
20 €500 notes
50 €200 notes
100 €100 notes
No need to break out the luggage.
- 15 hours
Aren’t those notes banned precisely for the reason of money laundering? It has been twenty years since I’ve seen €500 note.
- CAVOK@lemmy.worldEnglish13 hours
I had the idea years ago that we should ban notes outright, it would have to be coins and the highest denomination would be €50. You can still buy stuff that you’d need cash for, but it would make the black/shadow-economy more cumbersome. Or you’d get really strong criminals. 🙃
- BrickEater@lemmy.worldEnglish9 hours
Man what do you have against people using cash, Banks are untrustworthy as fuck. Who cares if “illegal transactions” occur, taxation is fucking theft anyways.
- Squizzy@lemmy.worldEnglish15 hours
This comment is poorly informed. Private car sales use cash a lot. 10,000 isnt suitcase worthy. Any volume of cash of a target. €10,000 being life changing is suspect, in what regard is it specific to europeans.
- 15 hours
Yeah fair enough. Someone mentioned they could carry €10,000, somehow, when I could barely fit wads of €50 bills in my wallet. So I doubted people paying in cash with €10,000.
€10,000 is a handsome amount of money to have. That’s why I put the caveat “someone financially wise enough”. From my experience, a lot of people spend more beyond their means, and then complain they can’t afford a house or raise a family. I am no faulting people, but most of us have been conditioned with the old assumptions that working alone could allow us to travel, party in our youth, and then afford to save later for a home. Nobody taught us about inflation.
- NIB@lemmy.worldEnglish16 hours
Payment for surgery to doctors who arent allowed to be paid, in a failed universal healthcare system. Or doctors who want to tax evade. This is a necessity if you want your poorer country to keep any decent doctors. Because why would any doctor work for 1500€ when they can easily migrate and find a job for 10k+.
- ayyy@sh.itjust.worksEnglish8 hours
Because why would any doctor work for 1500€ when they can easily migrate and find a job for 10k+.
Because most people like living at home with their family and friends. Money isn’t everything.
- NIB@lemmy.worldEnglish7 hours
Sure but there is a point where moving elsewhere becomes almost mandatory. For many highly skilled people in poorer EU countries, migrating to the Imperial core is a no brainer.
- 9point6@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
Stupid law
Money can be changed into something that isn’t money, yet functionally works the same for a single transaction, very easily
Especially if you’re already committing crimes
This is as effective as DRM; it hurts law abiding citizens more than those breaking the law
No that’s not stupid. It adds a layer of friction for criminals. In Italy where this law already applies for 5000€ (before it was 2000) it helps reduce black market.
Source: I used to be paid in cash (illegally) and it was a pain in the ass to do anything so now I get paid lawfully and my boss pays taxes
- gian @lemmy.grys.itEnglish18 hours
No that’s not stupid. It adds a layer of friction for criminals.
True criminals do not care. Mafia do not write invoices to sell/buy drugs or to pay a killer.
Source: I used to be paid in cash (illegally) and it was a pain in the ass to do anything so now I get paid lawfully and my boss pays taxes
Then the problem was not that your boss was paying you in cash but that he had the possibility to pay you under the table without (basically) any kind of risk.
- AAA@feddit.orgEnglish18 hours
Money can be changed into something that isn’t money, yet functionally works the same for a single transaction, very easily
Shops usually don’t accept “something that isn’t money” as payment.
This measure aims to make it harder for criminals to wash their illicit money using legit businesses.
- nahostdeutschland@feddit.orgEnglish17 hours
Money is the universal way to exchange goods or services. Yes, you may be getting paid for your tax-doging renovation in gold, bitcoin or artworks. You may accept Monero or Roblox gift cards as a payment for drugs. And you might find other people who will accept Roblox gift cards, but that doesn’t scale.
But then you have 10.000€+ in Bitcoin or gold and need to exchange it into real money in order to use it. Your local supermarket will not accept gold. You may be able to buy a house with Bitcoin, but the seller also needs to launder this money into something usable.
The neat thing here is that this might work for some small drug dealer or some craftsman doing a few things off the book. But if you’re doing a lager scale operation, that will get harder
- CAVOK@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
I’m OK with this law. Stops a 20-something from going into a shop with a bag of cash and walking out with a rolex or a luxury car. Plenty of drug dealers and other gangsters do this, and the police is annoyed.
Thankfully the police can now confiscate any item on you that you can’t prove is yours and how you legally got it.
- BrickEater@lemmy.worldEnglish9 hours
That’s completely fucked. Why do you care if somebody wants to buy something nice in cash?
- ayyy@sh.itjust.worksEnglish8 hours
Look up “civil asset forfeiture” to see where the logical conclusion of your flawed thinking ends up in practice.
- gian @lemmy.grys.itEnglish18 hours
Thankfully the police can now confiscate any item on you that you can’t prove is yours and how you legally got it.
This is what is wrong. I am not the one that should prove that what I do is legal, it is the police that must prove that what I am doing is illegal.
The trouble with that is it can be very hard to actually prove for known scumbags. I live in a small country and they have a “criminal assets bureau” which can bring folks in massive houses with fancy cars and expensive watches to court and the burden of proof is lower.
It basically boils down to “there’s no way this cunt can legally afford all this” then it gets seized.
Before it was created you had criminal kingpins showing up to pick up their dole (social security) weekly while raking in massive money criminally.
It’s not abused like that eminent domain thing in the US is though. There’s still court required.
- gian @lemmy.grys.itEnglish15 hours
I know, but my point still stand: someone is innocent until proven guilty.
Seizing somthing only because “there is no way this scumbag can legally afford all this” is nothing different from jailing someone because “there is no way you have not violated some law”.
I am not required to justify myself (in this case: paying something with cash accepted by the state), it is police’s job to prove that the cash I used is obtained illegally, not mine to prove that it is legal.I undertand that for 10.000 euros or more it is better to use a bank tranfer to pay, less risks for everyone, but assuming that I am a criminal just because I do it don’t really solve the problem.
I agree generally but this isn’t used for small sums. You’re talking hundreds of thousands / millions in highly visible ill gotten gains for it to be deployed.
And I think 10k is a bullshit amount for this new law. People buy cars second hand all the time with cash fully legit.
- Squizzy@lemmy.worldEnglish15 hours
We have CAB and the Special Criminal Courts, two systems that currently do the job of a piss poor police force. They are a huge target for misuse and abuse should we ever see a rightward leap in our government.
Luckily we have the best electoral system.
- Ludicrous0251@piefed.zipEnglish1 day
Thankfully the police can now confiscate any item on you that you can’t prove is yours and how you legally got it.
Are you missing a /s? Do you know how long it would take me to prove the shirt on my back is mine and how I legally got it if a cop wanted to harass me about it?
If you own an expensive watch are you just supposed to keep the 12-year-old receipt in your wallet in case you get stopped by a cop?
My wife’s wedding ring isn’t worth $10k, but it still is a hefty chunk of change. 1) I dont know how I would prove to a cop that it’s not worth 10k, and 2) even if it was, I don’t know how I would prove I didn’t buy it with drug money.
This is the equivalent to US civil forfeiture, which has been shown time and time again to be a broken system rife with abuse.
- CAVOK@lemmy.worldEnglish18 hours
Not at all, and no need to keep receipts on you. The cops need to get approval from an on-call prosecutor (kind-of) and have probable cause. They’re not going to stop a random citizen about their wedding ring, and even if they did the prosecutor wouldn’t allow them to take it. This targets known criminals without any income flaunting expensive shit. Now their shit gets taken away, and I’m good with it.
- CaptObvious@literature.cafeEnglish11 hours
You’ve obviously not paid attention to McConnell and Trump weaponizing US courts
- captainlezbian@lemmy.worldEnglish10 hours
Yeah as an American this is uncomfortably naive. I warned my countryfolk about it once and I’ll warn others about it now. This shit doesn’t end well.
- MyVeryRealName@lemmy.worldEnglish21 hours
Why should people have to prove that they got things legally to the police?
- ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.netEnglish15 hours
So you’re ok with people proving to the government that they got things legally and you just have an issue with which government representative does the checking? It’s a valid complaint but personally I think it’s a minor issue.
- MyVeryRealName@lemmy.worldEnglish15 hours
How is it a minor issue? There’s a difference between a cop asking you to prove you own things and a government official asking you to file taxes. One is a member of a violent arm of the government which enforces laws and the other is a bureaucrat.
- ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.netEnglish15 hours
The government doesn’t just ask you to file your taxes. They can investigate what you own and ask you to prove how you got it. They can use prosecutors and police to conduct searches and investigations. The police can also inform the bureaucrat that they suspect you’re braking tax laws. And yes, if the police see someone carrying a bunch of catalytic converters they can stop them and ask to prove how they got them. You’re talking about it like police investigating ownership is something new and dangerous while in reality it’s pretty standard thing. They will investigate all sort of suspected activity and carrying large amounts of cash or often stolen items can be one of them. This “violent arm of the government” interacts with people all the time, pretending they are some kill squads that should not get close to people unless they have evidence of crime or something is silly.
- captainlezbian@lemmy.worldEnglish10 hours
Criminals are people. To act otherwise or to reduce their rights is the wedge issue of tyrants.
- MyVeryRealName@lemmy.worldEnglish18 hours
How do you determine if someone is a criminal? Also, pretty sure the law in post applies to everyone.
- CAVOK@lemmy.worldEnglish18 hours
All laws apply to everyone, but not everyone is subjected to them. If you don’t have a drivers licence you’re not subject to laws related to driving a car.
- MyVeryRealName@lemmy.worldEnglish18 hours
Everyone is subject to laws related to driving a car. They’re not going to let you off the hook just because you don’t have a licence.
- CAVOK@lemmy.worldEnglish17 hours
Yeah, that was my point? The laws apply, but you will never have to think about them.
- 9point6@lemmy.worldEnglish1 day
Stops a 20-something from going into a shop with a bag of cash and walking out with a rolex or a luxury car
I’m sorry, but what exactly is the problem with that
And also I don’t know what world you’re living in where a €10k car is considered luxury (unless you’re saying all cars are luxury, in which case we may have some common ground)
If a 20-something (or any-something, more importantly) has that money and they want to spend it, what’s the problem
Why should someone be made a criminal for selling a car for cash
- MyVeryRealName@lemmy.worldEnglish21 hours
A 20 something walking into a shop with a duffel bag full of cash is definitely suspicious
- Slashme@lemmy.worldEnglish18 hours
Same with a 50 something walking into a car dealership with a briefcase full of cash. Or a 40 something buying a condo in Munich with cash. Something ain’t right here.
- gian @lemmy.grys.itEnglish15 hours
And why exactly ?
Once I paid my fair share of taxes, what I do with my money is not your business (nor state’s business).
If I want to withdraw money from the bank every month and keep under the sink until I have enough money to buy a home with cash I am free to do it. It is smart ? Probably not so much but it is not illegal either. - MyVeryRealName@lemmy.worldEnglish16 hours
True but people at that age walking into places with that much cash are either white collar criminals or politicians and both are unfortunately more socially accepted than blue collar criminals.
- CAVOK@lemmy.worldEnglish19 hours
Criminals use it to launder money. And it’s not only €10k, it’s €10k and above. So a 20 year old with no job or income comes into a dealership, buys an Audi RS3 for €80k in cash and we’re all supposed to pretend that’s fine?
If you have over €10k in cash and want to spend it, sure, go right ahead, but you’ll need to prove where you got it from. Banks have a KYC requirements, put the money there and arrange for a bank transfer. It’s not like cash is banned.
- Jax@sh.itjust.worksEnglish1 day
Thankfully the police can now confiscate any item on you that you can’t prove is yours and how you legally got it.
You won’t be thanking them when a cop takes your shit because you don’t have your papers.
- CAVOK@lemmy.worldEnglish19 hours
They obviously go through the legal system so it’s not confiscated forever if you can show that it’s actually yours. This is a law designed to remove expensive items from gansters. If you’re not doing shady shit you’ll never have anything taken from you by the police.
- bedwyr@piefed.caEnglish1 day
I don’t know how I feel about this. Generally though I think I’m against it even if rich people do abuse whatever. What am I saying I’m definitely against this. They chose to use money, they chose to allow things to cost a lot more than 10,000 pounds but we can’t pay with more than 10,000 pounds? Why? So we go through their Banks and bullshit. It’s about control I presume.
- Slashme@lemmy.worldEnglish18 hours
It’s not about credit vs buying outright, it’s about banning the use of actual banknotes for large transactions. That’s a popular way to launder money and hide income for tax evasion.
- 1 day
Under the new rules, businesses and professionals selling goods or services will no longer be allowed to accept or make cash payments of €10,000 or more.
This doesn’t apply to private transactions, by the way.
Off the top of my head, I can’t think of a single example of a legitimate legal business that would be done using cash in that amount.
So while there’s definitely a danger of the rules being tightened over time, this specific change here doesn’t raise my concern too much.
What bothers me more is the utter lack of any effective measure against the true problem in tax fraud – those who do it at a truly large scale still get away without any punishment or control, and in fact sit at the table when the tax laws are written.- bedwyr@piefed.caEnglish1 day
Nobody wants to see oligarchs getting away with cheating tax laws by handing over briefcases of cash, but if this new law does not affect private transactions that wouldn’t even affect this.
I wonder what supposed ill this is supposed to cure do we know of any examples of businesses that have cheated taxes or whatever else by paying in cash?
I have known of more than one person that has paid for a house in cash and it was a smart move for them, by the time you get done with the mortgage you might end up paying 4 times more.
- bstix@feddit.dkEnglish18 hours
what supposed ill this is supposed to cure do we know of any examples of businesses that have cheated taxes or whatever else by paying in cash?
Come on. It happens everywhere, particulary in sales of services.
Restaurants not making receipts for a dinner avoid the value added sales tax and company tax. Nobody will notice the food missing.
The cleaner who takes cash doesn’t pay income tax and can underbid the professionals. Nobody will notice that the cleaning has been done.
These might be small amount transactions, but once the pizza restaurant has 100 orders of €100 they have €10k.
Now how are they going to deposit or spend that without questions? They can of course use the cash to pay the cleaner a few times, but the stack of cash is going to increase. So they hire a carpenter to redo the floor. This costs more than €10k, and they pay him in cash. But then what’s the carpenter going to do with the money if he can’t spend it on a new car? He sure isn’t going to eat pizza for €10k monthly. Maybe he can buy drugs illegally, but then the pusher has the problem with the stacks of cash.
By making larger cash amounts illegal it will put a limit on how much cash somebody even wants to accept as payment, even if they’re okay with doing tax evasion and other crimes.
The small stuff transactions will still happen, but the amounts are going to be kept beneath the threshold of what people can actually use legally.
This will make it a lot more difficult for the pusher to launder the money. The money laundering criminals can no longer make a fake receipt for a €100k grand piano. Now they have to make 10 receipts for €10k upright pianos and at some point somebody is going to question where all those pianos are.
- 1 day
Did they actually hand over a bag full of cash?
Cause the other alternative isn’t a mortgage, it’s a bank transfer.- bedwyr@piefed.caEnglish1 day
Briefcase(s.) Of 100 dollar bills.
But I’m with you, I would have went with the canvas bag with the big money symbol on it but I’m a traditionalist.
100 bills doesn’t need a briefcase. You can carry it in your pocket.
- bedwyr@piefed.caEnglish1 day
Hundreds of thousands of dollars in $100 bills, I’ve Been Told is actually very bulky.
Now I do not know about that because I’ve never had that kind of money not even fucking close. Sadly.
But it has been Illustrated on some TVs and movies like Burn Notice. Not that I am advocating for that show I’m just saying they made that point on there it’s bulky when you get into large numbers.
- 1 day
You’ve been told correctly, or at least correctly enough that it won’t fit in a pocket. The attached pic is a bundle of 1,000 notes correctly packaged (assuming Canadian, since you said dollars and are on a .ca instance, but it’s similar for most currencies). One of those bundles in 100 dollar notes is, of course, $100,000, so presumably it’s some number between one and ten of those bundles
It’s to bolster the luxury art industry since expensive paintings will now be used as currency
- progandy@feddit.orgEnglish1 day
car sales in germany traditionally have all or at least a large part of the sum paid in cash if not financed. at least a few years ago that was the case, no idea about now.
Finally, a EU law designed to fight against Germany’s fossil fuel addiction. Because I guarantee we will buy no new cars before we embrace cashless transactions.
- eleijeep@piefed.socialEnglish1 day
Whilst I’m all for cash usage, who is paying for a house with cash?
- Denys Nykula@piefed.socialEnglish1 day
People who have lived through numerous economic crashes and bank closings. In Eastern Europe, cash in EUR and USD has good reputation, despite efforts by governments to bully people out of paying with cash altogether.
- atomicbocks@sh.itjust.worksEnglish1 day
Mostly people who are ‘investing’ in houses. For instance it is legal to use profits from the sale of property to buy more property and not pay taxes on that income as long as it’s done within the same calendar year in most US states.
- ranzispa@mander.xyzEnglish1 day
Why would you do it with cash though? It’s pretty uncomfortable to walk around with a luggage filled with 500,000€
- atomicbocks@sh.itjust.worksEnglish23 hours
AFAIK wire transfers are still considered cash transactions.
- Slashme@lemmy.worldEnglish18 hours
That’s not what this law is about. This is about banning the use of banknotes for large transactions.
- 1 day
The way I read it, it doesn’t. That’s still a private transaction.
And who buys a house and hands over a suitcase full of cash?- Denys Nykula@piefed.socialEnglish1 day
Depends on where you buy a house. There are many rural houses and small apartments in tower blocks. And why a suitcase? You probably have a few dozen low-value banknotes lying around at home, stack them together and see they don’t take up much space (high-value banknotes aren’t thicker).
- bedwyr@piefed.caEnglish1 day
Well sure, typo whatever kind of foreign currency. Euros dollars pounds they’re all about the same.
- bedwyr@piefed.caEnglish1 day
Seems pretty close to me. If you said said $10,000 or $8,000 I wouldn’t blink an eye.
- ramble81@lemmy.zipEnglish1 day
Cool, can l have that $2K difference from you if it doesn’t mean anything?
- Evil_Shrubbery@thelemmy.clubEnglish1 day
Wero & a true digital € would mitigate this a bit, tho not sure if the same restriction would apply to offline digital € payments.
But yeah, anyway, basic banking accounts & payment systems are core infrastructure, as such imho shouldn’t be (only) privatised, ECB should provide the service.
